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Author Topic: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators  (Read 27251 times)

RHDNBot

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Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« on: January 08, 2013, 07:48:12 am »

Update By: puzzledude

FuSoYa, who we all know for his divine work with everything related to SMW, has recently released two new/modified SNES emulators. Snes9x, that supports 8MB ROMs, ExHiroms, ExLoroms etc and ZSNES, that also supports 8MB ROMs, ExLoroms and ExHiroms.

This is incredible news, since the SNES ROM extension was somehow stuck at 4MB at maximum and the most common SNES emulator (ZSNES) didn't even support a standard ExLorom mapping, which really is simple in comparison to ExHirom.

The only emulator which supported ROMs bigger than 4MB was Snes9x (original build) but only up to 6MB, but now we have two of them, both capable of running the biggest SNES ROMs possible.

Staff Edit:
Note this is only the largest possible ROM size for the ZSNES and SNES9x emulators. Larger ROM sizes are supported by other emulators as well as the console hardware itself.

RHDN Project Page

Relevant Link: (http://www.romhacking.net/utilities/904/)

LostTemplar

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2013, 08:27:29 am »
Quote
The only emulator which supported roms bigger than 4MB was Snes9x

Nope, bsnes/higan basically supports any ROM size that would be possible on a real SNES (if not from the get-go, then through custom memory mapping). And as far as I know 8MB isn't even the biggest supported size; wasn't that Star Ocean No-SDD hack 12MB and ran just fine on a real SNES?

Zoinkity

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2013, 09:53:36 am »
BSNES is a delutional fantasy.  Such an emulator could never exist ;*)

justin3009

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2013, 10:31:46 am »
I have never, EVER been a fan of BSNES.  As amazing as it is, I just cannot stand to use it.

I prefer any ROM hacks I create to work on ZSNES or SNES9X but if it works on BSNES that's an added bonus.

This is huge HUGE news for games like Tales of Phantasia and Star Ocean where there is little to no room to do anything else.  As I said in the review, this will severely help so many other games in the long-run as well if people decide to go nuts with them.
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amitrius17

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2013, 01:48:15 pm »
Quote
supports 8MB roms, ExHiroms, ExLoroms etc and ZSNES, that also supports 8MB roms, ExLoroms and ExHiroms

I'm not ROM hack savvy. Can someone explain the benefits that come from these improvements?
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DarknessSavior

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2013, 02:01:31 pm »
Does the new version of ZSNES that supports this have the old game-specific hacks in it, or have they been removed? I ask because I use a version that doesn't have that stupid buggy line in the middle of FFIV dialogue boxes and whatnot.

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Lilinda

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2013, 02:15:54 pm »
I have never, EVER been a fan of BSNES.  As amazing as it is, I just cannot stand to use it.

I prefer any ROM hacks I create to work on ZSNES or SNES9X but if it works on BSNES that's an added bonus.

This is huge HUGE news for games like Tales of Phantasia and Star Ocean where there is little to no room to do anything else.  As I said in the review, this will severely help so many other games in the long-run as well if people decide to go nuts with them.

I use an older version that works with about... 98% of the SNES library or so. Most special chip games are not supported(Which bugs me very little) and that Speedy Gonzales games that was later discovered to be bugged don't either. 0.048. Works quite fine and without the gigantic pain in the assness that follows using later bsnes versions or higen.
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Pennywise

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2013, 03:25:05 pm »
I don't get why anyone still uses ZSNES when SNES9x is the better alternative. It makes me think of those old people who are scared of change and didn't want to replace their antennas with digital cable boxes or whatever that whole thing was about.

KingMike

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2013, 04:25:24 pm »
I prefer any ROM hacks I create to work on ZSNES or SNES9X but if it works on BSNES that's an added bonus.

It is not good for future emulator compatibility if your hack knowingly only works on ZSNES.
It is also less likely to be played, if more people are moving beyond it, as ZSNES is soon hitting six years without an update.
(I also use it pretty much just for a ROM hacking tool now and for SMW hacks.)
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Bregalad

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2013, 04:36:34 pm »
ZSNES = Super Nesticle

BSNES is good but even on my PC it slows down.

SNES9x used to be my favourite but since they released a new version that lost compability with old save states it annoyed me, and the compatibility with Windows 7 is hazardous (it randomly crashes).

In the end I think SNESGT is the best choice.

justin3009

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2013, 07:52:01 pm »
I always make sure it works  on SNES9X  first,  then  ZSNES  after. I really don't like BSNES as it strangely has a gigantic slow down when on a decently capable computer.  Though,  I've been trying to make my projects supported in that too. (AKA:  Mega Man X2/X3)
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Nec5

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2013, 10:33:36 pm »
I don't get why anyone still uses ZSNES when SNES9x is the better alternative. It makes me think of those old people who are scared of change and didn't want to replace their antennas with digital cable boxes or whatever that whole thing was about.
I still use ZSNES.  I don't use SNES9x because when I run it, I get an error about missing a .dll related to sound, which means no sound at all.  Further research on the forums revealed that one possible solution would be to install an old version of Direct X because apparently the new version I run is missing some of those files.  At that point, I bail because I and others have run into issues when installing old versions of DirectX or similar "system tools" or "libraries".  I seem to be in the minority though with this problem.

Result: I'm interested in these new emulators.
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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 11:46:40 pm »
Impressive. They can make planets.
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LostTemplar

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2013, 02:32:43 am »
I still use ZSNES.  I don't use SNES9x because when I run it, I get an error about missing a .dll related to sound, which means no sound at all.  Further research on the forums revealed that one possible solution would be to install an old version of Direct X because apparently the new version I run is missing some of those files.  At that point, I bail because I and others have run into issues when installing old versions of DirectX or similar "system tools" or "libraries".  I seem to be in the minority though with this problem.

Result: I'm interested in these new emulators.

What version of Snes9x did you try? I've got DirectX 11 installed and have no problems with Snes9x 1.53.

While I can understand that people back away from bsnes due to its not-so-optimal usability and maybe speed concerns (though even my >3-year old computer runs it at 120fps...), using ZSNES strikes me as what Pennywise described. Okay, using it wouldn't be so much of a problem, but relying on it for hacking work is not very... insightful.

puzzledude

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2013, 08:44:41 am »
Nope, bsnes/higan basically supports any ROM size that would be possible on a real SNES

I've tested bsnes. It is extremly slow even on a good computer. I've also tested the Exlorom and it doesn't work.


I'm not ROM hack savvy. Can someone explain the benefits that come from these improvements?

What Fusoya did is a huge benefit. Probably not to a standard user, but definetely for a experienced modder. Since you can expand any rom up to 8MB and have lots of space to work with.

For instance I wanted some new space for header properties. When the data was repointed, ZSNES did not recognize the rom, since it didnt recognize anything over the 4MB. And we know that Super Metroid has 3,2MB. Any repointed data easily goes over 4MB. Not to mention Exhirom, which needs double space. Any repointed data can easily go over 6MB.

Does the new version of ZSNES that supports this have the old game-specific hacks in it, or have they been removed?

This version has the same core as the old ZSNES, but is has new features (supports multiple formats).

I don't get why anyone still uses ZSNES when SNES9x is the better alternative. It makes me think of those old people who are scared of change and didn't want to replace their antennas with digital cable boxes or whatever that whole thing was about.

I also prefer Snes9x better. I guess we are in the minority. Luckily Fusoya made both Snes9x and ZSNES, which really is incredible. I think he had less work with Snes9x, since it already supported Exlorom, but up to 6MB by accident. He had probably more work with ZSNES, but he didn't want to let all the ZSNES users down.



SNES9x used to be my favourite but since they released a new version that lost compability with old save states it annoyed me, and the compatibility with Windows 7 is hazardous (it randomly crashes).

You just need to use 1.53 and have the latest DirectX installed and it works on Win7 also. It also has a 64 bit support.


I still use ZSNES.  I don't use SNES9x because when I run it, I get an error about missing a .dll related to sound, which means no sound at all.  Further research on the forums revealed that one possible solution would be to install an old version of Direct X because apparently the new version I run is missing some of those files.

The new snes9x has the same core, so it will give you a dll error if you dont have the latest DirectX installed. You need some dlls for the video and some for audio, so 2 errors are possible. I had them both, and both resolved by installing DirectX 11.



Jorpho

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2013, 09:59:54 am »
What Fusoya did is a huge benefit. Probably not to a standard user, but definetely for a experienced modder. Since you can expand any rom up to 8MB and have lots of space to work with.

For instance I wanted some new space for header properties. When the data was repointed, ZSNES did not recognize the rom, since it didnt recognize anything over the 4MB. And we know that Super Metroid has 3,2MB. Any repointed data easily goes over 4MB. Not to mention Exhirom, which needs double space. Any repointed data can easily go over 6MB.
So what is ExLoRom?
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LostTemplar

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2013, 10:03:08 am »
I've tested bsnes. It is extremly slow even on a good computer. I've also tested the Exlorom and it doesn't work.

That doesn't change that your claim was wrong. It can support ANY mapping possible on the real hardware; I never said it did so from the get-go, you might have to write a custom XML file. I don't know what your definition of "good" is, but my computer (i5 2.80GHz, 4GB RAM) gets 120-150fps on games not using any special chips. Your testing definitely wasn't very thorough.

I'm no blind advocate of bsnes/higan, I'm using Snes9x most of the times myself, but that doesn't excuse making wrong claims. What I am is strongly against using ZSNES in this age. Especially if you're somebody making a hack.

puzzledude

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2013, 11:46:16 am »
So what is ExLoRom?

Exlorom is a logical "big brother" of the rom, that was once a Lorom. This is not the same as some original games, who have more than 4MB. The Exlorom is an expanded lorom, that goes above 4MB, thus a normal linear mapping is no longer possible.

If you have a 2MB game and want to expand it to 4MB, you just add the space and fill it, but once it goes beyond 4MB, you can not "just" add the free space and repoint the data.

A special new format must be made, which has the core data stored at a certain address so that it can be read normally. Plus its first $8000 bank must be mirrored to the beginning of the file. In such a format, you can add data until you reach 8MB (but most emus didn't support such a format).

Exlorom is a logical choice if you need space (and you need it), since all roms are usually filled down to the last byte.

Its alternative is a Exhirom (same thing, but in a hirom format). This one is complex since it uses a system of $8000 banks in a "full-empty-full-empty" tactics. PS Super Mario Demo World, The legend continues uses this special Exhirom mapping.


That doesn't change that your claim was wrong. It can support ANY mapping possible on the real hardware; I never said it did so from the get-go, you might have to write a custom XML file.

If you can make Bsnes run SDW TLC (Exhirom) or any custom made Exlorom, this is good news. But usually the supported mappings are programmed by the ones, who made the emulator. If they don't add custom mappings, a typical emu user is out of luck.



LostTemplar

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2013, 12:17:14 pm »
If you can make Bsnes run SDW TLC (Exhirom) or any custom made Exlorom, this is good news. But usually the supported mappings are programmed by the ones, who made the emulator. If they don't add custom mappings, a typical emu user is out of luck.

You "just" have to write a custom manifest file (I write "just" because to a typical user even this might be out of reach - but for any hacker it shouldn't pose too much of a problem). It's an XML file that contains the mapping you want the ROM to have. For example, I wrote a custom manifest for testing the Far East of Eden Zero script, where I mapped another megabyte (additional to the 5MB of the original) to banks $40-4f. Looks like this:

Spoiler:
Code: [Select]
<?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8'?>
<cartridge region="NTSC">
<rom>
<map mode='shadow' size='0x100000' address='00-0f:8000-ffff'/>
<map mode='shadow' size='0x100000' address='80-bf:8000-ffff'/>
<map mode='linear' size='0x100000' address='c0-cf:0000-ffff'/>
<map mode='linear' offset='0x100000' address='40-4f:0000-ffff'/>
</rom>
<spc7110>
<ram size='0x2000'>
<map mode='linear' address='00:6000-7fff'/>
<map mode='linear' address='30:6000-7fff'/>
</ram>
<mmio>
<map address='00-3f:4800-483f'/>
<map address='80-bf:4800-483f'/>
</mmio>
<mcu offset='0x200000'>
<map address='d0-ff:0000-ffff' offset='0x200000' size='0x400000'/>
</mcu>
<dcu>
<map address='50:0000-ffff'/>
</dcu>
<rtc>
<map address='00-3f:4840-4842'/>
<map address='80-bf:4840-4842'/>
</rtc>
</spc7110>
</cartridge>

Nec5

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Re: Utilities: We got some new SNES emulators
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2013, 08:11:13 pm »
The new snes9x has the same core, so it will give you a dll error if you dont have the latest DirectX installed. You need some dlls for the video and some for audio, so 2 errors are possible. I had them both, and both resolved by installing DirectX 11.
I just ran the old dxdiag program to check my version.  Still says DirectX 11.  No dice.  Who knows?  As I said earlier, one of the solutions proposed was to install and earlier version of DirectX, but I've seen issues with that approach that affect the whole system.  Kind of a shame really.

For the record, I kind of liked SNES9x better, but the sound has always been a bit "off" even before the new version.  That's why I tend to stick with ZSNES despite its age.
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